Hi, I'm a Mac. No, I'm a PC. No, Wait...

[John L]

I'm primarily a PC user that uses Microsoft Windows on my computers. My desktop at home runs Windows (Vista). My work computer runs Windows (XP). Since I'm the head of IT where I work, I guess I could count all of 'my' computers as Windows computers (XP, Server 2003, 2000). Windows tends to be the de-facto standard with most work environments, and with all but one exception all of my workplaces have used Windows almost exclusively (the exception used Linux of various types, still PC hardware).

Over the recent Christmas holiday, my brother informed me that he got himself a new laptop (a MacBook) because he dropped his older laptop (an iBook) and broke the screen and the hinge holding the screen to the rest of the laptop. Since he knew I had a passing interest in playing with an Apple (Mac) computer, he offered to give it to me. I accepted with all the enthusiasm of a teenage boy being asked if he wants to drive his dad's fancy new expensive car. You really can't beat a free laptop, even if the screen is broken, and as I looked into it I figured it shouldn't cost much to get it fixed up and running fine.

I wasn't disappointed. The screen and hinge assembly-- that entire half of the laptop, actually-- was available for purchase from a site that sells Mac parts, and there were plenty of downloadable documents explaining how to take the laptop apart. I'm glad there were sites out there with instructions, too, because apparently Apple laptops are extremely over-engineered to the point where you practically have to take the whole thing apart to replace some things. I've taken apart several laptops before to varying degrees, but this even topped the tiny Sony 12-inch laptop I took apart to fix some broken parts in it. Still, a few hundred dollars (less than buying a used Mac laptop) later and I had myself my very own Apple iBook.

It's a nice laptop, too. I haven't had my own personal laptop for a while, not since my previous laptop began sputtering and choking and the mini-lappie I fixed before was "decommissioned" and donated to my wonderful web-host (Lead) for "testing" and sundry purposes that wouldn't put as much stress on it as I would. Now, I not only have my own laptop again, but I have a pretty nice one considering the total investment I put into getting it. For you Mac-o-philes, it's a 1.42 Ghz iBook G4 with 1 GB of RAM, and while it currently runs OS X 10.4 it could probably run 10.5 with little problem (though I'm fine with Tiger for now). Frankly, it's a snappy thing, pretty much comparable to my previous two laptops, one a 2.4 Ghz Pentium and the other a 1.8 Ghz Pentium Mobile (both PCs running Windows), if not a bit better in a few things. Unlike the newer laptops from Apple, I can't install Windows on this to run along with the Apple Mac OS, though honestly I doubt I'll need it for anything: so far, I haven't run into any compatibility problems outside of getting the Mac equivalents for little software apps I tend to run on Windows.

I do have an advantage in my favor, though: I'm not intimidated by the Mac operating system because I've already used operating systems somewhat similar to it already, as underneath its hood OS X isn't too different from Linux in a lot of ways. What does this mean? Well, it basically means that I already have a basic understanding of how the nuts-and-bolts of the operating system work, so now I just need to learn (or figure out) the "Mac way" of doing things or I can just drop down to the Terminal-- the command-line for Macs-- and figure out how to do it the old-fashioned Unix-ish way. Granted, I'd rather learn the Mac way of doing it, but I have a safety net in the case I can't figure it out (not counting the plethora of online documents and how-tos out there for Mac users). It's really only a small advantage, and not really something that is going to help me in every instance, but I'm not walking into it with a chance of being intimidated by an unknown operating system, which I'm sure can happen to a lot of people.

Does having this make me cooler? Am I going to be more creative now? Am I now part of an exclusive club of Mac-owning people who are inherently better than other computer users? Not really, no. But now the curious part of me has something else to poke at, browse around, and develop some skills with. I still use Windows on my desktop, and at work my computers are going to continue to remain mostly Windows (though my CEO bought a MacBook Pro, so I'll now be able to help him out some), so not much is going to change in my day-to-day life just because I got a Mac. I still look more like the PC guy in those Apple commercials than I do the younger, slimmer (and, in my opinion, scruffier and messier) Mac guy. And honestly, despite the "lifestyle" commercials from Apple and some pop-culture impressions of their products, I don't think the computer I use is supposed to do any of those things.

I can say, though, that getting this iBook has solidified my decision to make my next laptop purchase an Apple MacBook, though. I wasn't exactly 100% sure before, but it's pretty much settled now.

Oh, and this was all typed on my Mac. :)

[ExitthePig]

My sister just showed me her new mac mini, and I must say I was impressed. I have been considering buying one for some time, but usually go the pragmatist route and look at my 1.3 ghz p4 with a whopping maximum memory of 512mb of RDram(which apparently is out of date) as good enough for me. I still dream though. I would love a giant imac with one of those 24 inch displays...you can't even see everything at once on them.

She reports that it is twice as fast as her pc, and the pc isn't anything to laugh at either.

I mostly use my computer for audio work, which it handles fine, but now that it is 7 years old I am beginning to worry.

Are mac's really that geared for "the arts" as the advertising leads one to believe?


Personally I find the mac guy annoying....

[Lead]

I work in an industry that is split between PC and Mac. Ten, Fifteen years ago, yes, Mac was far superior to PC for doing graphics work. This was especially true for the print industry. The tools needed for doing the work were either not available for PC, or didn't work as well on PC as on Mac.

This is seriously no longer true. Nowadays it is pretty much an ideological split. It's a "creative" thing. *rolling eyes* Some things are easier on Mac out of the box. Some things are easier on PC (especially if that's what you're used to). But as far as what you can actually DO with each, it's pretty much the same. My main reason for wanting a Mac these days is mostly because there are a couple of small applications that are available only on Mac that I would like to play with. They're available only on Mac because so many studios are on Macs, rather than PCs. And while I will soon have a Mac to play with, and do cross-platform browser checking on, I could not justify paying for a new one just to play with a couple of $40 applications. And I won't be switching any time soon for my primary development environment because I can get the same hardware for half the price in a PC, and don't want to have to re-license some $4,000 worth of software for the Mac.

And my new laptop kicks John's MacBook's ass. *G*

[GreNME]

I mostly use my computer for audio work, which it handles fine, but now that it is 7 years old I am beginning to worry.

Are mac's really that geared for "the arts" as the advertising leads one to believe?

Like Lead said, Macs are no longer the de facto standard any more. Alternatively, they've also managed to become far more compatible in environments where PCs and Macs exist together. You don't have to jump through hoops to get them playing nice these days, which I find refreshing.

Now, for what you're talking about (audio work), you might find that there are more consumer-level software packages out there for the Mac, because a lot of people in the music industry like Macs. That doesn't mean they're better at it, though, because honestly no software is going to make someone a better musician or audio editor / mixer. I actually began learning to mix and cut music together on the PC, and in fact two of my all-time favorite programs (Acid and SoundForge) are PC software. That said, the latest Apple computers also come with this program called Garage Band, which is great for music or audio mixing and producing (though not great on file editing). That really excited me. Still, for a little remixing exercise I began working on a few days ago (remixing a song from Nine Inch Nails' Year Zero because they released a disk that has the separate tracks in audio files specifically for that), I'm going to be bouncing files back and forth between my iBook and my PC desktop, so it's going to be a little from column A and a little from column B.

How's that for a non-comittal answer? Basically, neither one is going to be inherently better than the other. It's just going to be a Pepsi/Coke or Chevy/Ford (or a tastes great / less filling) thing.

Personally I find the mac guy annoying....

Yeah, me too. I like this spoof video for Macs:
oc4oP_ITqMc

[ExitthePig]

Thanks Lead/GreNME, for useful information. Being semi computer literate I know just enough to know I know little if anything. To be honest, mac's really only appeal to me as a pop culture item...sure they are fast, and sleek...but looking once at the price tag usually turns my stomach. Especially when I could build a "hella pc" for much less....maybe even two of them...any way...

Now, for what you're talking about (audio work), you might find that there are more consumer-level software packages out there for the Mac, because a lot of people in the music industry like Macs. That doesn't mean they're better at it, though, because honestly no software is going to make someone a better musician or audio editor / mixer. I actually began learning to mix and cut music together on the PC, and in fact two of my all-time favorite programs (Acid and SoundForge) are PC software. That said, the latest Apple computers also come with this program called Garage Band, which is great for music or audio mixing and producing (though not great on file editing). That really excited me. Still, for a little remixing exercise I began working on a few days ago (remixing a song from Nine Inch Nails' Year Zero because they released a disk that has the separate tracks in audio files specifically for that), I'm going to be bouncing files back and forth between my iBook and my PC desktop, so it's going to be a little from column A and a little from column B.

Uh oh...you better watch yourself. Before you know it a whole room of your house could be dedicated to audio...believe me, it doesn't take long.

I have acid, and had sound forge. When I only used acid(4.0) it was a blast. I really liked the lay out...I am not sure how the new version of it stacks up, but I am sure it's similar. Sound forge was great for making loops to use in acid and was equally as easy to use...however...if you are planning on learning about this stuff the program I have gotten the greatest pleasure from is Reason. Mainly because it operates like hardware which I find very useful in learning how to mix and use effects properly. Granted it took about a year of messing about to get to a point where I thought I had a good enough grasp on things to make more original sounding stuff as opposed to just beats.

Reason has a sister program called recycle which generally blew the hell out of sound forge imho...sound forge does have the advantage of recording audio clips, whereas recycle just edits them..although recycle has the added bonus of finding all the down beats automatically for the creation of rex files. Once it is a rex file you can arrange the individual sounds any way you want..or play them like an instrument...or whatever...

I kind of have to disagree a bit on the software not making a person a better mixer..etc...

The objection I have is that there is a HUGE difference between protools, and some audio studio you get at best buy. The advantages of PT enable a person to be a better mixer for sure...(it's also about 20,000 bucks to get a decent protools setup)...there are a lot of factors when it comes to mixing I think...especially when you look at the hardware and software out there.

Regarding musicianship...honestly in my view some of the crappiest electronic music is made by really good musicians. I think being a musician goes out the window almost altogether when talking strictly computer music. Each piece of software is like having a whole new array of sound previously unimaginable.

Honestly I could type for another hour on this and still not feel like I came to a conclusion...it is the number one thing I am a nerd for.

That said..I remixed some nails songs too...Only, My violent heart, Capital G...and one other I can't recall...I did them all with reason and recycle...perhaps we can have a NIN remix face off where one of us gets served?

Here are some links to things I like related to audio software:

Audiomulch- My main man. It is a free download and only costs 89 bucks to get a serial number...you can use if for 60 days free with no restriction, after that you can't save anything. It is the easiest, and by far the most interesting piece of software that I have came across for under 100 bucks.
It does whatever you want it to do.
www.audiomulch.com

Reason-
www.propellerhead.se

Basically it comes with pre-designed synths, samplers, drum machines, effects...etc...all of which are designed to look like the real thing, and work like the real thing...the deal is though that you can have as many as you want of them. I mostly use it for arranging my samples...but the synthesis is pretty nice too.

Reaktor-
Amazing tool. NIN makes heavy use of this and other native instruments products:
www.nativeinstruments.com

Max/MSP-
Only for the hardcore. It could be the hardest program I can think of to use, but apparently it does literally anything. Like reaktor you can actually design and build and virtual audio device you can think of. Pretty sexy.
http://www.cycling74.com/products/maxmsp

So yeah...not to derail or anything...

[GreNME]

Uh oh...you better watch yourself. Before you know it a whole room of your house could be dedicated to audio...believe me, it doesn't take long.

I already had that ten years ago. I basically had my own recording studio for a while, working on mostly industrial/techno/rock/punk stuff, sometimes dipping into other stuff for fun. Gave most of it away or sold it. If it dates my time any, I not only still have my Acid 4.5 software, but I was mostly doing the recording thing back when 4.0 was brand-spankin-new. I heard Sony bought Sonic Foundry after I started to get out of it.

That said..I remixed some nails songs too...Only, My violent heart, Capital G...and one other I can't recall...I did them all with reason and recycle...perhaps we can have a NIN remix face off where one of us gets served?

We could, but you would probably serve me. It's been a few years for me, and I'm just trying out the NIN song because it's something that already has some tracks and I can fiddle around with to "get back on the bike" (so to speak). I'm not planning on doing much more than some off-time futzing around, though. If you want to make one of the same song I'm doing right now (Zero Sum) you're welcome to, but like I said you'll probably whoop me on it if you've had any recent practice.

[ExitthePig]

I already had that ten years ago. I basically had my own recording studio for a while, working on mostly industrial/techno/rock/punk stuff, sometimes dipping into other stuff for fun. Gave most of it away or sold it. If it dates my time any, I not only still have my Acid 4.5 software, but I was mostly doing the recording thing back when 4.0 was brand-spankin-new. I heard Sony bought Sonic Foundry after I started to get out of it.

You fogey. I remember when it was brand spankin new as well...it wasn't that long ago...like 2003 I think...but there were 3 versions prior. I remember soiling myself my senior year in high school(98) when a friend of mine got a copy. My recording setup then was my sisters boom box, or a karaoke machine(which was a landmark where we discovered overdubbing)


We could, but you would probably serve me. It's been a few years for me, and I'm just trying out the NIN song because it's something that already has some tracks and I can fiddle around with to "get back on the bike" (so to speak). I'm not planning on doing much more than some off-time futzing around, though. If you want to make one of the same song I'm doing right now (Zero Sum) you're welcome to, but like I said you'll probably whoop me on it if you've had any recent practice.


Hehehe...it's a good thing I am not competetive when it comes to music then...I would be happy to hear your finished product...Zero sum is one I haven't done yet...so it should be interesting. Does the CD you have break the files down into loops, or does it just give you the multitrack files? Also...if you could point me to a good freeware wav to mp3 converter I would be happy to share what I have got. I have looked many times for them but the ones I find seem to be buggy or only able to be used 5 times before you have to pay for the full version.

[John L]

Sonic Foundry sold their products to Sony in 2003. Sonic Foundry's version of the software was out before that. I had it as far back as 2000 or 2001.

Anyhoo, NIN released a disk called Y34RZ3R0R3M1X with the separate tracks (not loops), so I'm using that as the baseline and editing tracks (as well as adding stuff) to do it. Slowly. Very slowly.

[ExitthePig]

Sonic Foundry sold their products to Sony in 2003. Sonic Foundry's version of the software was out before that. I had it as far back as 2000 or 2001.

Anyhoo, NIN released a disk called Y34RZ3R0R3M1X with the separate tracks (not loops), so I'm using that as the baseline and editing tracks (as well as adding stuff) to do it. Slowly. Very slowly.

Slowly is right. It took me a whole evening to cut out all the relevant parts and convert them to loops/samples for just one of the songs. If you are looking for some thing easier, I believe Only from with teeth is available as loops...

Here is a pretty cool remix...it involves nirvana and nin...
The hand that feeds-Scott Wilson
http://ninremixes.com/index.php?squery=nirvana

[ExitthePig]

also speaking of nin...did anyone notice that he just released 4 new albums on the 2nd?

[Nick]

I have to admit, I HATED macs with a passion because that's what I learned to use when I was 6th grade(admitting I'm young here. :) ), I think were called gsII's. They were before the colorful CRT iMac came out in the 90s. They were a little slow running "Oregon Trail".

I was a dedicated PC user until February. I got the opportunity to play with one, and oh man, the software that comes with Leopard right out of the box is amazing. Garage band seemed to do what Acid 4.0(what I learned on) could do, but it came with OS X. I absolutely loved the thing. So I went ahead and bought the 20" iMac. 2.4ghz core duo, 2 gb ram, 300 gig HD, 512 video ram.

I think the coolest thing about it though is that I was able set aside a 30 gigabyte partition for Windows and installed my copy of XP SP2 from an older computer, so I boot up in windows for gaming, since stupid Valve wouldn't make Half-Life 2 compatible with mac.

I think Apple is doing a really good job at increasing their market share these days.

As for price, they're not much different when you consider that the iMac comes with a 20" active matrix TFT screen, and an obviously superior operating system.

Also, it's worth noting that my computer, out the door with taxes and shipping was $1500, and the Dell equivalent(the "One")with non-integrated video(128MB less video RAM that mine!), same HD capacity and amount of RAM costs $1799.00 to start before taxes.
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsdt_one?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs

[Grey Area]

Is that with a full featured keyboard and 2-button scroll mouse?

I'd wind up running it in windows all the time anyway, as I have hated every version of MS Office that has been available for Apple stuff.

The features are impressive, however.

[GreNME]

Err, Nick, hate to burst your bubble but you chose the wrong system for comparison. I'm assuming you're talking about your iMac, yes? While the Apple Premium for the hardware has gone down considerably, I think you've fallen for Apple's marketing-speak with your comparison. Frankly, Apple systems don't have a 1::1 comparison matrix to other system builders, because Apple systems are built under a strict set of configurations that don't allow for much change other than RAM and HDD space after choosing a model. Granted, the Dell all-in-ones you linked to are similar in that respect, but those aren't reflective of the actual configuration choices you have from Dell or really most other system builders out there.

For example: Lead posted above that her laptop (a Dell XPS system) kicks the crap out of my iBook. This is very true. It's also true that her laptop would probably perform as well or better than a MacBook Pro of similar configuration (which is easier when comparing the laptop lines). She spent a total of between $2100-$2200 on her laptop, and an equivalent from Apple would have started at close to $2500 at the time-- I know this because I checked. That's nowhere near the huge difference of 5-6 years ago with Apple products, but it's not a slam-dunk in terms of savings for either side of the argument.

Conversely, though, I don't have the same set of needs that Lead has for my next laptop, and while I'll be looking for any savings I can get, I'm also really wanting to follow through and get another Mac laptop on my next purchase. The more I look at the system configurations, the more I'm finding that while the Black MacBook really seems close to what I want, I'm likely going to be forced to buy the MacBook Pro because it Black doesn't have all of the things I'd want (like bigger than a 15" screen). Also, I've noticed that the MacBook line of monitors are slightly less bright than the MacBook Pro line, both of which are actually not quite as bright as the Dell line-- Dell monitors are currently some of the best out there, higher contrast and brightness than even Apple's right now (don't know why, but don't really care).

The landscape of choices has definitely changed, and changed for the better as far as I'm concerned. I'd be careful about putting too much stake into the marketing claims of any company, though, becuase they're usually worded just carefully enough to not be outright lies but are still not indicative of real-world or apples-to-apples (no pun intended) comparisons.