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View Full Version : Barack Obama Speech You Must Watch/Read


GreNME
03-19-2008, 11:15 PM
This is an amazing speech given recently by Senator Obama. I don't think I've ever felt more positively toward a candidate before in my life, whether before or since I've been old enough to vote, and this speech illustrates why I feel that way. In 2004 I wanted General Clarke to win the nomination because I thought he was the best candidate from the list of possibilities in the Democratic Party. With Barack Obama I honestly feel like he is not only the best candidate the Democratic Party has to offer, but the best candidate America can use at this time to run our country. Forget the comparisons with Kennedy-- I'm not a huge fan of Kennedy anyway, though he had his shining moments-- Barack Obama's oratory skills and political message are comparable to the likes of some of America's most historic leaders, and exactly the kind of figure this country needs right now.

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“We the people, in order to form a more perfect union.”

Two hundred and twenty one years ago, in a hall that still stands across the street, a group of men gathered and, with these simple words, launched America’s improbable experiment in democracy. Farmers and scholars; statesmen and patriots who had traveled across an ocean to escape tyranny and persecution finally made real their declaration of independence at a Philadelphia convention that lasted through the spring of 1787.

The document they produced was eventually signed but ultimately unfinished. It was stained by this nation’s original sin of slavery, a question that divided the colonies and brought the convention to a stalemate until the founders chose to allow the slave trade to continue for at least twenty more years, and to leave any final resolution to future generations.

Of course, the answer to the slavery question was already embedded within our Constitution – a Constitution that had at is very core the ideal of equal citizenship under the law; a Constitution that promised its people liberty, and justice, and a union that could be and should be perfected over time.

And yet words on a parchment would not be enough to deliver slaves from bondage, or provide men and women of every color and creed their full rights and obligations as citizens of the United States. What would be needed were Americans in successive generations who were willing to do their part – through protests and struggle, on the streets and in the courts, through a civil war and civil disobedience and always at great risk - to narrow that gap between the promise of our ideals and the reality of their time.

This was one of the tasks we set forth at the beginning of this campaign – to continue the long march of those who came before us, a march for a more just, more equal, more free, more caring and more prosperous America. I chose to run for the presidency at this moment in history because I believe deeply that we cannot solve the challenges of our time unless we solve them together – unless we perfect our union by understanding that we may have different stories, but we hold common hopes; that we may not look the same and we may not have come from the same place, but we all want to move in the same direction – towards a better future for of children and our grandchildren.

This belief comes from my unyielding faith in the decency and generosity of the American people. But it also comes from my own American story.

I am the son of a black man from Kenya and a white woman from Kansas. I was raised with the help of a white grandfather who survived a Depression to serve in Patton’s Army during World War II and a white grandmother who worked on a bomber assembly line at Fort Leavenworth while he was overseas. I’ve gone to some of the best schools in America and lived in one of the world’s poorest nations. I am married to a black American who carries within her the blood of slaves and slaveowners – an inheritance we pass on to our two precious daughters. I have brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, uncles and cousins, of every race and every hue, scattered across three continents, and for as long as I live, I will never forget that in no other country on Earth is my story even possible.

It’s a story that hasn’t made me the most conventional candidate. But it is a story that has seared into my genetic makeup the idea that this nation is more than the sum of its parts – that out of many, we are truly one.

Throughout the first year of this campaign, against all predictions to the contrary, we saw how hungry the American people were for this message of unity. Despite the temptation to view my candidacy through a purely racial lens, we won commanding victories in states with some of the whitest populations in the country. In South Carolina, where the Confederate Flag still flies, we built a powerful coalition of African Americans and white Americans.

This is not to say that race has not been an issue in the campaign. At various stages in the campaign, some commentators have deemed me either “too black” or “not black enough.” We saw racial tensions bubble to the surface during the week before the South Carolina primary. The press has scoured every exit poll for the latest evidence of racial polarization, not just in terms of white and black, but black and brown as well.

And yet, it has only been in the last couple of weeks that the discussion of race in this campaign has taken a particularly divisive turn.

On one end of the spectrum, we’ve heard the implication that my candidacy is somehow an exercise in affirmative action; that it’s based solely on the desire of wide-eyed liberals to purchase racial reconciliation on the cheap. On the other end, we’ve heard my former pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright, use incendiary language to express views that have the potential not only to widen the racial divide, but views that denigrate both the greatness and the goodness of our nation; that rightly offend white and black alike.

I have already condemned, in unequivocal terms, the statements of Reverend Wright that have caused such controversy. For some, nagging questions remain. Did I know him to be an occasionally fierce critic of American domestic and foreign policy? Of course. Did I ever hear him make remarks that could be considered controversial while I sat in church? Yes. Did I strongly disagree with many of his political views? Absolutely – just as I’m sure many of you have heard remarks from your pastors, priests, or rabbis with which you strongly disagreed.

But the remarks that have caused this recent firestorm weren’t simply controversial. They weren’t simply a religious leader’s effort to speak out against perceived injustice. Instead, they expressed a profoundly distorted view of this country – a view that sees white racism as endemic, and that elevates what is wrong with America above all that we know is right with America; a view that sees the conflicts in the Middle East as rooted primarily in the actions of stalwart allies like Israel, instead of emanating from the perverse and hateful ideologies of radical Islam.

As such, Reverend Wright’s comments were not only wrong but divisive, divisive at a time when we need unity; racially charged at a time when we need to come together to solve a set of monumental problems – two wars, a terrorist threat, a falling economy, a chronic health care crisis and potentially devastating climate change; problems that are neither black or white or Latino or Asian, but rather problems that confront us all.

Given my background, my politics, and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in the first place, they may ask? Why not join another church? And I confess that if all that I knew of Reverend Wright were the snippets of those sermons that have run in an endless loop on the television and You Tube, or if Trinity United Church of Christ conformed to the caricatures being peddled by some commentators, there is no doubt that I would react in much the same way

But the truth is, that isn’t all that I know of the man. The man I met more than twenty years ago is a man who helped introduce me to my Christian faith, a man who spoke to me about our obligations to love one another; to care for the sick and lift up the poor. He is a man who served his country as a U.S. Marine; who has studied and lectured at some of the finest universities and seminaries in the country, and who for over thirty years led a church that serves the community by doing God’s work here on Earth – by housing the homeless, ministering to the needy, providing day care services and scholarships and prison ministries, and reaching out to those suffering from HIV/AIDS.

In my first book, Dreams From My Father, I described the experience of my first service at Trinity:

“People began to shout, to rise from their seats and clap and cry out, a forceful wind carrying the reverend’s voice up into the rafters….And in that single note – hope! – I heard something else; at the foot of that cross, inside the thousands of churches across the city, I imagined the stories of ordinary black people merging with the stories of David and Goliath, Moses and Pharaoh, the Christians in the lion’s den, Ezekiel’s field of dry bones. Those stories – of survival, and freedom, and hope – became our story, my story; the blood that had spilled was our blood, the tears our tears; until this black church, on this bright day, seemed once more a vessel carrying the story of a people into future generations and into a larger world. Our trials and triumphs became at once unique and universal, black and more than black; in chronicling our journey, the stories and songs gave us a means to reclaim memories that we didn’t need to feel shame about…memories that all people might study and cherish – and with which we could start to rebuild.”

That has been my experience at Trinity. Like other predominantly black churches across the country, Trinity embodies the black community in its entirety – the doctor and the welfare mom, the model student and the former gang-banger. Like other black churches, Trinity’s services are full of raucous laughter and sometimes bawdy humor. They are full of dancing, clapping, screaming and shouting that may seem jarring to the untrained ear. The church contains in full the kindness and cruelty, the fierce intelligence and the shocking ignorance, the struggles and successes, the love and yes, the bitterness and bias that make up the black experience in America.

And this helps explain, perhaps, my relationship with Reverend Wright. As imperfect as he may be, he has been like family to me. He strengthened my faith, officiated my wedding, and baptized my children. Not once in my conversations with him have I heard him talk about any ethnic group in derogatory terms, or treat whites with whom he interacted with anything but courtesy and respect. He contains within him the contradictions – the good and the bad – of the community that he has served diligently for so many years.

I can no more disown him than I can disown the black community. I can no more disown him than I can my white grandmother – a woman who helped raise me, a woman who sacrificed again and again for me, a woman who loves me as much as she loves anything in this world, but a woman who once confessed her fear of black men who passed by her on the street, and who on more than one occasion has uttered racial or ethnic stereotypes that made me cringe.

These people are a part of me. And they are a part of America, this country that I love.

Some will see this as an attempt to justify or excuse comments that are simply inexcusable. I can assure you it is not. I suppose the politically safe thing would be to move on from this episode and just hope that it fades into the woodwork. We can dismiss Reverend Wright as a crank or a demagogue, just as some have dismissed Geraldine Ferraro, in the aftermath of her recent statements, as harboring some deep-seated racial bias.

But race is an issue that I believe this nation cannot afford to ignore right now. We would be making the same mistake that Reverend Wright made in his offending sermons about America – to simplify and stereotype and amplify the negative to the point that it distorts reality.

The fact is that the comments that have been made and the issues that have surfaced over the last few weeks reflect the complexities of race in this country that we’ve never really worked through – a part of our union that we have yet to perfect. And if we walk away now, if we simply retreat into our respective corners, we will never be able to come together and solve challenges like health care, or education, or the need to find good jobs for every American.

Understanding this reality requires a reminder of how we arrived at this point. As William Faulkner once wrote, “The past isn’t dead and buried. In fact, it isn’t even past.” We do not need to recite here the history of racial injustice in this country. But we do need to remind ourselves that so many of the disparities that exist in the African-American community today can be directly traced to inequalities passed on from an earlier generation that suffered under the brutal legacy of slavery and Jim Crow.

Segregated schools were, and are, inferior schools; we still haven’t fixed them, fifty years after Brown v. Board of Education, and the inferior education they provided, then and now, helps explain the pervasive achievement gap between today’s black and white students.

Legalized discrimination - where blacks were prevented, often through violence, from owning property, or loans were not granted to African-American business owners, or black homeowners could not access FHA mortgages, or blacks were excluded from unions, or the police force, or fire departments – meant that black families could not amass any meaningful wealth to bequeath to future generations. That history helps explain the wealth and income gap between black and white, and the concentrated pockets of poverty that persists in so many of today’s urban and rural communities.

A lack of economic opportunity among black men, and the shame and frustration that came from not being able to provide for one’s family, contributed to the erosion of black families – a problem that welfare policies for many years may have worsened. And the lack of basic services in so many urban black neighborhoods – parks for kids to play in, police walking the beat, regular garbage pick-up and building code enforcement – all helped create a cycle of violence, blight and neglect that continue to haunt us.

This is the reality in which Reverend Wright and other African-Americans of his generation grew up. They came of age in the late fifties and early sixties, a time when segregation was still the law of the land and opportunity was systematically constricted. What’s remarkable is not how many failed in the face of discrimination, but rather how many men and women overcame the odds; how many were able to make a way out of no way for those like me who would come after them.

But for all those who scratched and clawed their way to get a piece of the American Dream, there were many who didn’t make it – those who were ultimately defeated, in one way or another, by discrimination. That legacy of defeat was passed on to future generations – those young men and increasingly young women who we see standing on street corners or languishing in our prisons, without hope or prospects for the future. Even for those blacks who did make it, questions of race, and racism, continue to define their worldview in fundamental ways. For the men and women of Reverend Wright’s generation, the memories of humiliation and doubt and fear have not gone away; nor has the anger and the bitterness of those years. That anger may not get expressed in public, in front of white co-workers or white friends. But it does find voice in the barbershop or around the kitchen table. At times, that anger is exploited by politicians, to gin up votes along racial lines, or to make up for a politician’s own failings.

And occasionally it finds voice in the church on Sunday morning, in the pulpit and in the pews. The fact that so many people are surprised to hear that anger in some of Reverend Wright’s sermons simply reminds us of the old truism that the most segregated hour in American life occurs on Sunday morning. That anger is not always productive; indeed, all too often it distracts attention from solving real problems; it keeps us from squarely facing our own complicity in our condition, and prevents the African-American community from forging the alliances it needs to bring about real change. But the anger is real; it is powerful; and to simply wish it away, to condemn it without understanding its roots, only serves to widen the chasm of misunderstanding that exists between the races.

In fact, a similar anger exists within segments of the white community. Most working- and middle-class white Americans don’t feel that they have been particularly privileged by their race. Their experience is the immigrant experience – as far as they’re concerned, no one’s handed them anything, they’ve built it from scratch. They’ve worked hard all their lives, many times only to see their jobs shipped overseas or their pension dumped after a lifetime of labor. They are anxious about their futures, and feel their dreams slipping away; in an era of stagnant wages and global competition, opportunity comes to be seen as a zero sum game, in which your dreams come at my expense. So when they are told to bus their children to a school across town; when they hear that an African American is getting an advantage in landing a good job or a spot in a good college because of an injustice that they themselves never committed; when they’re told that their fears about crime in urban neighborhoods are somehow prejudiced, resentment builds over time.

Like the anger within the black community, these resentments aren’t always expressed in polite company. But they have helped shape the political landscape for at least a generation. Anger over welfare and affirmative action helped forge the Reagan Coalition. Politicians routinely exploited fears of crime for their own electoral ends. Talk show hosts and conservative commentators built entire careers unmasking bogus claims of racism while dismissing legitimate discussions of racial injustice and inequality as mere political correctness or reverse racism.

Just as black anger often proved counterproductive, so have these white resentments distracted attention from the real culprits of the middle class squeeze – a corporate culture rife with inside dealing, questionable accounting practices, and short-term greed; a Washington dominated by lobbyists and special interests; economic policies that favor the few over the many. And yet, to wish away the resentments of white Americans, to label them as misguided or even racist, without recognizing they are grounded in legitimate concerns – this too widens the racial divide, and blocks the path to understanding.

This is where we are right now. It’s a racial stalemate we’ve been stuck in for years. Contrary to the claims of some of my critics, black and white, I have never been so naïve as to believe that we can get beyond our racial divisions in a single election cycle, or with a single candidacy – particularly a candidacy as imperfect as my own.

But I have asserted a firm conviction – a conviction rooted in my faith in God and my faith in the American people – that working together we can move beyond some of our old racial wounds, and that in fact we have no choice is we are to continue on the path of a more perfect union.

For the African-American community, that path means embracing the burdens of our past without becoming victims of our past. It means continuing to insist on a full measure of justice in every aspect of American life. But it also means binding our particular grievances – for better health care, and better schools, and better jobs - to the larger aspirations of all Americans -- the white woman struggling to break the glass ceiling, the white man whose been laid off, the immigrant trying to feed his family. And it means taking full responsibility for own lives – by demanding more from our fathers, and spending more time with our children, and reading to them, and teaching them that while they may face challenges and discrimination in their own lives, they must never succumb to despair or cynicism; they must always believe that they can write their own destiny.

Ironically, this quintessentially American – and yes, conservative – notion of self-help found frequent expression in Reverend Wright’s sermons. But what my former pastor too often failed to understand is that embarking on a program of self-help also requires a belief that society can change.

The profound mistake of Reverend Wright’s sermons is not that he spoke about racism in our society. It’s that he spoke as if our society was static; as if no progress has been made; as if this country – a country that has made it possible for one of his own members to run for the highest office in the land and build a coalition of white and black; Latino and Asian, rich and poor, young and old -- is still irrevocably bound to a tragic past. But what we know -- what we have seen – is that America can change. That is true genius of this nation. What we have already achieved gives us hope – the audacity to hope – for what we can and must achieve tomorrow.

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds – by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.

In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world’s great religions demand – that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother’s keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister’s keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

For we have a choice in this country. We can accept a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism. We can tackle race only as spectacle – as we did in the OJ trial – or in the wake of tragedy, as we did in the aftermath of Katrina - or as fodder for the nightly news. We can play Reverend Wright’s sermons on every channel, every day and talk about them from now until the election, and make the only question in this campaign whether or not the American people think that I somehow believe or sympathize with his most offensive words. We can pounce on some gaffe by a Hillary supporter as evidence that she’s playing the race card, or we can speculate on whether white men will all flock to John McCain in the general election regardless of his policies.

We can do that.

But if we do, I can tell you that in the next election, we’ll be talking about some other distraction. And then another one. And then another one. And nothing will change.

That is one option. Or, at this moment, in this election, we can come together and say, “Not this time.” This time we want to talk about the crumbling schools that are stealing the future of black children and white children and Asian children and Hispanic children and Native American children. This time we want to reject the cynicism that tells us that these kids can’t learn; that those kids who don’t look like us are somebody else’s problem. The children of America are not those kids, they are our kids, and we will not let them fall behind in a 21st century economy. Not this time.

This time we want to talk about how the lines in the Emergency Room are filled with whites and blacks and Hispanics who do not have health care; who don’t have the power on their own to overcome the special interests in Washington, but who can take them on if we do it together.

This time we want to talk about the shuttered mills that once provided a decent life for men and women of every race, and the homes for sale that once belonged to Americans from every religion, every region, every walk of life. This time we want to talk about the fact that the real problem is not that someone who doesn’t look like you might take your job; it’s that the corporation you work for will ship it overseas for nothing more than a profit.

This time we want to talk about the men and women of every color and creed who serve together, and fight together, and bleed together under the same proud flag. We want to talk about how to bring them home from a war that never should’ve been authorized and never should’ve been waged, and we want to talk about how we’ll show our patriotism by caring for them, and their families, and giving them the benefits they have earned.

I would not be running for President if I didn’t believe with all my heart that this is what the vast majority of Americans want for this country. This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected. And today, whenever I find myself feeling doubtful or cynical about this possibility, what gives me the most hope is the next generation – the young people whose attitudes and beliefs and openness to change have already made history in this election.

There is one story in particularly that I’d like to leave you with today – a story I told when I had the great honor of speaking on Dr. King’s birthday at his home church, Ebenezer Baptist, in Atlanta.

There is a young, twenty-three year old white woman named Ashley Baia who organized for our campaign in Florence, South Carolina. She had been working to organize a mostly African-American community since the beginning of this campaign, and one day she was at a roundtable discussion where everyone went around telling their story and why they were there.

And Ashley said that when she was nine years old, her mother got cancer. And because she had to miss days of work, she was let go and lost her health care. They had to file for bankruptcy, and that’s when Ashley decided that she had to do something to help her mom.

She knew that food was one of their most expensive costs, and so Ashley convinced her mother that what she really liked and really wanted to eat more than anything else was mustard and relish sandwiches. Because that was the cheapest way to eat.

She did this for a year until her mom got better, and she told everyone at the roundtable that the reason she joined our campaign was so that she could help the millions of other children in the country who want and need to help their parents too.

Now Ashley might have made a different choice. Perhaps somebody told her along the way that the source of her mother’s problems were blacks who were on welfare and too lazy to work, or Hispanics who were coming into the country illegally. But she didn’t. She sought out allies in her fight against injustice.

Anyway, Ashley finishes her story and then goes around the room and asks everyone else why they’re supporting the campaign. They all have different stories and reasons. Many bring up a specific issue. And finally they come to this elderly black man who’s been sitting there quietly the entire time. And Ashley asks him why he’s there. And he does not bring up a specific issue. He does not say health care or the economy. He does not say education or the war. He does not say that he was there because of Barack Obama. He simply says to everyone in the room, “I am here because of Ashley.”

“I’m here because of Ashley.” By itself, that single moment of recognition between that young white girl and that old black man is not enough. It is not enough to give health care to the sick, or jobs to the jobless, or education to our children.

But it is where we start. It is where our union grows stronger. And as so many generations have come to realize over the course of the two-hundred and twenty one years since a band of patriots signed that document in Philadelphia, that is where the perfection begins.
This is why he has my vote.

Starla*
04-06-2008, 10:15 AM
For a while, I was really unsure about this guy. He's a freshman senator, and I had heard some unsavory things about him early in his campaign.

Now that I've been paying better attention to the campaigns, this guy has my vote for sure---even though NJ primary was two months ago.

I'm worried that he might lose on account of being a "black" man. But I think he has a way better chance than Clinton against McCain.

Grey Area
04-07-2008, 03:54 PM
Yeah. It's just wait and see for me now.

I sure would hate for four more years of backwards nonsense advocating letting the greedy police themselves.

(edit: that smiley just didn't work.)

waldek
04-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Why would ANYONE vote for a guy that wont say the pledge and is a muslim? He is just as crooked as any of the other guys running.

GreNME
04-08-2008, 05:42 PM
Why would ANYONE vote for a guy that wont say the pledge and is a muslim? He is just as crooked as any of the other guys running.

Which guy are you talking about?

Starla*
04-08-2008, 08:03 PM
Yeah, what ARE you talking about?

He IS NOT a MUSLIM! And even if he was, who gives a flying fuck?! This is AMERICA where we have FREEDOM of RELIGION!! And what's the pledge bullshit, this one is new...

Go research before you make statements about things FOX news told you.

Grey Area
04-09-2008, 10:41 AM
Why would ANYONE vote for a guy that wont say the pledge and is a muslim? He is just as crooked as any of the other guys running.

Hey, if I cared that much about a presidential candidates world-view, I wouldn't vote for anyone.

Let's get an athiest in office!

dodeca
04-09-2008, 07:03 PM
I like the idea of Ron Paul for prez. I think waldek is referring to Obama not singing the National Anthem.

GreNME
04-09-2008, 10:01 PM
You realize Paul is no longer running for the nomination, right? There are a few people I think would be awesome presidents as well, but if they're not actually running for president I may as well be saying I'm pulling for Batman to win this election.

Then again, Batman would make a pretty kickass president.

HereticHulk
04-10-2008, 09:35 AM
I'm writing in Ron Paul and Batman for VP.

dodeca
04-10-2008, 10:58 AM
Actually Ron Paul is still running. He is wasting his time but he still is. I will still write him in even though I know it won't be counted.

www.ronpaul2008.com now there are two

Grey Area
04-10-2008, 11:12 AM
You realize Paul is no longer running for the nomination, right? There are a few people I think would be awesome presidents as well, but if they're not actually running for president I may as well be saying I'm pulling for Batman to win this election.

Then again, Batman would make a pretty kickass president.

Bruce Wayne is an out-of-control vigilante of the worst sort.

That's why we love him, but I question his sanity, and would not want him to be in charge of a superpower like America.

Judge Dredd knew what to do with him.

GreNME
04-10-2008, 11:22 AM
Actually Ron Paul is still running. He is wasting his time but he still is. I will still write him in even though I know it won't be counted.

www.ronpaul2008.com now there are two

Well, that's interesting, considering he already gave a concession speech stating he wouldn't be winning the nomination. What's the deal with the precinct delegate push? To try to get more people in to represent Paul more heavily? I certainly understand the tactic considering what I've witnessed at the Democratic Party conventions here in Texas (some downright nasty tactics), but I'm wondering what the overall goal is here.

Also, why does he still have the prefix 'Dr.' to his name when it's been about thirty years since he's even practiced medicine? It seems more honorific than credentialed if that's the case.

dodeca
04-14-2008, 02:44 PM
The idea is to get more delegates on his side than McCain so that he gets the nominee. It does not matter if more people voted for McCain if Paul gets more delegates. Part of the reason he is still in is because he is leading a movement. He isn't really in to win anymore.:(

He has a doctorate degree. Similarly school teachers are not doctors, but but if they have a doctorate then they put Dr. in front of their name. :o

GreNME
04-14-2008, 06:47 PM
The idea is to get more delegates on his side than McCain so that he gets the nominee. It does not matter if more people voted for McCain if Paul gets more delegates. Part of the reason he is still in is because he is leading a movement. He isn't really in to win anymore. :(

So the goal is to get someone who didn't get the majority vote into the nomination? That sounds about as democratic (or as ethical) as the 2000 presidential vote that put Bush into office.

dodeca
04-14-2008, 11:34 PM
:eek: Thats not a good comparison. I believe there was vote fraud in Florida for sure and that caused him to win in the electoral college. He did not win the popular vote. The fraud was the only thing illegal in that mess, and it has already happened in this election also.
Ron Paul is leading the movement so more "real" conservatives will run. He knows he is not going to win, however if he gets enough delegates then he will at least be able to show the "neocons" that people really want freedom. Even if he could win the nominee doing this, it would not be illegal.

GreNME
04-15-2008, 09:02 AM
How is it not a good comparison? The people have actually voted, and Paul lost. If somehow his fans got into the party delegate positions and got Paul into the party nomination it wouldn't be reflective of the actual people's vote.

I understand that you wish he could have won more to be the party nominee, but sneaking delegates in that aren't reflective of the people's vote is basically cheating. Think of it this way: what if Ron Paul had won more votes but then McCain or Romney or one of those guys got delegates to trump the votes and knock Paul out of the running? You would consider that cheating or evil, wouldn't you? How is what the Ron Paul campaign is doing any different than that?

Even if he could win the nominee doing this, it would not be illegal.

Not being illegal doesn't mean it isn't unethical. What Bush did in 2000 wasn't illegal either-- in fact, the Supreme Court even said it was legal.

dodeca
04-15-2008, 01:30 PM
I understand that you wish he could have won more to be the party nominee, but sneaking delegates in that aren't reflective of the people's vote is basically cheating. Think of it this way: what if Ron Paul had won more votes but then McCain or Romney or one of those guys got delegates to trump the votes and knock Paul out of the running? You would consider that cheating or evil, wouldn't you? How is what the Ron Paul campaign is doing any different than that?



I would be pissed but I wouldn't consider it cheating or evil. I really think that Paul would have had a good chance had the news not slanted everything against him and say he was out of the race long before Huck, Romney, and even Hunter were out. The media has way too much control over us. McCain was about to bail out because he did not have the money to continue. He was not even in third place and all of a sudden when the news said he was in the lead, people went out and voted for him because they wanted to vote for the winner. The news always said Ron Paul was not going to win, yet he got more funding than any of the other candidates. Thats not by just a few people either because the max a person can donate is $2300. McCain as far as I know is still in the red.


Not being illegal doesn't mean it isn't unethical. What Bush did in 2000 wasn't illegal either-- in fact, the Supreme Court even said it was legal.

I think the recounting in Florida was a fraud and therefore it was illegal. Obviously I have no proof, but common sense tells you something was messed up with that election other than the fact that Bush did not win the popular vote.


I assume your for Obama? Just out of curiosity what makes you like him?
My prediction is that Hilary will get the democratic nominee because thats what the media wants. They are just hyping Obama to shoot him down.

Is this forum always this deserted?

Grey Area
04-15-2008, 01:43 PM
*waits for comment to snipe*

That wasn't it.

ExitthePig
04-15-2008, 02:41 PM
Intermission


o-zoPgv_nYg

qnvIHiSY2Xs


LU502-MNtsE

YPsU-kSBnwI

WOlk92pVBE4

8DYm6TbieIc

R6dm9rN6oTs

GreNME
04-15-2008, 05:29 PM
I would be pissed but I wouldn't consider it cheating or evil. I really think that Paul would have had a good chance had the news not slanted everything against him and say he was out of the race long before Huck, Romney, and even Hunter were out. The media has way too much control over us. McCain was about to bail out because he did not have the money to continue. He was not even in third place and all of a sudden when the news said he was in the lead, people went out and voted for him because they wanted to vote for the winner. The news always said Ron Paul was not going to win, yet he got more funding than any of the other candidates. Thats not by just a few people either because the max a person can donate is $2300. McCain as far as I know is still in the red.

But you're talking about "what if" or "coulda been" with all that. I'm talking about right now, if people actually went in and voted differently than the majority of individuals who went to vote chose, then it would be anti-democratic. I wouldn't feel that way about just Ron Paul, either, because I think it was just as unethical when Bush did it and I am annoyed that Clinton's lawyers are trying to do that right now in Texas for the caucuses. Whether the majority of people vote for who you like or not, being in support of democracy means being in support of the people's majority vote, not the candidate of your choice.

I think the recounting in Florida was a fraud and therefore it was illegal. Obviously I have no proof, but common sense tells you something was messed up with that election other than the fact that Bush did not win the popular vote.

Why wouldn't you think that having people become delegates and voting opposite of the way that voters did is fraud?

I assume your for Obama? Just out of curiosity what makes you like him?
My prediction is that Hilary will get the democratic nominee because thats what the media wants. They are just hyping Obama to shoot him down.

What makes me like him is that he's currently the only candidate out there who doesn't talk to me like I'm a child or an idiot. I understand that you and many others feel similarly about Ron Paul, but he sounds more to me like an ideologue (Obama sounded similarly in my opinion early on, but that's since changed) and I'm not fond of ideologues running this country (I consider the last eight years as proof). On top of his speaking abilities there is the fact that he seems to genuinely be able to talk to members of other parties to come up with solutions (has done so several times in Congress), his fiscal policies are pretty good (I especially like his proposition to fixing Social Security), I like his desire to approach foreign issues with logic instead of emotional rhetoric, and to be honest I have a bit of an emotional attachment to the views he expressed in the video I have shown above (for example, some of my extended family is multi-ethnic and I've seen a lot of what he talks about).

Is this forum always this deserted?

Unfortunately, yes. It didn't used to be, but people found other (presumably better) things to do.

ExitthePig
09-10-2008, 05:27 PM
I am at work, so I can't take the time to dig it up, but...Obama on O'reilly was great. The way he handles the hyperbole is astounding to me, every time O'reilly gets all flustered and yells Obama just laughs and brings it back into focus.

It's a multipart interview, and I think the 4th part airs tonight...I suggest catching it.

ExitthePig
09-10-2008, 05:28 PM
I would also add that it is because of this interview that I may actually vote for him...at least I am now strongly leaning that way.

dodeca
11-05-2008, 09:20 PM
I can't believe America is dumb enough to vote for Barack Osama. I'm proud to say that I did not vote for the Socialist or the Neocon. People think that voting third party is throwing your vote away but its more of a slap in the face to the establishment. People say you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils but that's still voting for evil thus supporting it. Supporting evil is only going to bring worse evil in the next election because in their eyes you support them. Osama is going to screw us bad.

GreNME
11-05-2008, 09:35 PM
Whatever you say, dude. Just don't make any threats to the guy, because I really don't want to have to deal with the fallout from that.

ExitthePig
11-05-2008, 09:59 PM
I can't believe America is dumb enough to vote for Barack Osama. I'm proud to say that I did not vote for the Socialist or the Neocon. People think that voting third party is throwing your vote away but its more of a slap in the face to the establishment. People say you have to vote for the lesser of the two evils but that's still voting for evil thus supporting it. Supporting evil is only going to bring worse evil in the next election because in their eyes you support them. Osama is going to screw us bad.

You are, like, totally entitled to your horribly mistaken opinion. I am sure Ron Paul wisking us back to the 19th century in his political time machine would have saved us all.



*No offense to any people who like Ron Paul, Hulk...*

Starla*
11-06-2008, 10:53 AM
I can't believe America is dumb enough to vote for Barack Osama.

You know, I am hardly against 3rd party voting. You should show support for your party. But I don't think Barrack Obama deserves to be lumped in with terrorists, like you're implying with the word-play. At least people voted; it was the highest voter turnout since 1960.

It sounds like you've been watching too much Fox News.

dodeca
11-07-2008, 01:00 AM
You know, I am hardly against 3rd party voting. You should show support for your party. But I don't think Barrack Obama deserves to be lumped in with terrorists, like you're implying with the word-play. At least people voted; it was the highest voter turnout since 1960.

It sounds like you've been watching too much Fox News.

Actually I hate fox noise. CNN has been my usual lateley. Obama wont say the pledge, he's friends with terrorist, and he is muslim whether he admits it or not. It's been said that he wasn't born in America or but the judges wont even listen before they throw it out.

Starla*
11-07-2008, 08:13 AM
What the fuck are you talking about? Hawaii was a state when Obama was born there in the early 1960s, or did you forget your fucking history class? Plus, I didn't know your father's religion made you muslim--the man is a churchgoer, more so than McCain. And even if he is Muslim, who gives a fuck? This country was based on separation of church and state--religion doesn't matter. Anyway, Islam, Judaism and Christianity are pretty much the same, besides the little details and the name they give the singular god.

And that obselete terrorist you're bringing up--a protestor of the Vietnam War had been a college professor when Obama met him in the 1980s. Anything having to do with the Vietnam war, I'm sorry to say, is obsolete, excepting it's message and lesson to this country. Oh, yeah, and CNN is as much bullshit as Fox News, only toned down a bit--and don't fucking argue with me on that one--this is what my education is in, and I know how these things work. All they care about is getting people to watch, but using the most sensationalized details. You never see the big picture on the TV screen.

You can insult politicians all you want, just get your fucking facts straight before you do.

Grey Area
11-07-2008, 10:15 AM
So how do you really feel about all that? ;)

ExitthePig
11-07-2008, 07:48 PM
How do you get that my logic is flawed?

Because I am just perceptive like that.


I'm a conservative republican but this time and last i could not vote republican because my choices were not conservative. so i vote 3rd party. If enough people voted 3rd party the other parties would try to be more like them.

I never would have thought a member of the GM forums would label themselves a conservative republican. How odd.

Say what u want about Ron Paul. He was the only candidate that really cared about keeping our freedom. He also knows the economy.

What freedom are we in danger of losing exactly?


You are one of the sheep my friend.

...and yet I hate wool. It's proving to be quite the difficulty.

John L
11-07-2008, 10:50 PM
Actually I hate fox noise. CNN has been my usual lateley. Obama wont say the pledge, he's friends with terrorist, and he is muslim whether he admits it or not. It's been said that he wasn't born in America or but the judges wont even listen before they throw it out.

If anything you were saying had anything to do with reality I might feel the need to try to address them. Unfortunately you've gone beyond conspiracy theory and well into schizophrenic dementia territory.

Question for you, though: since you're basically repeating the nonsense rhetoric from the Hillary and Palin bullshit departments, why didn't you support either of them? I think it's because the bullshit is only a convenient way to ignore having to come up with logical reasoning for hating someone you didn't vote for.

GreNME
11-09-2008, 11:17 PM
All I can say is to offer this challenge to HH:

HereticHulk, if in a year, two years, or four years we get the opportunity to revisit the question of "what is the state of the country?" here on the forum, can you promise me that you'll honestly and frankly give me not only the courtesy of performing an honest self-evaluation, but also listen with an open and reasonable mind to my argument if I think things are better or worse?

I'm only putting it like this because Obama doesn't even get a chance to run things until January, so I'm not going to even try to make a case right now. Like you, I want results and I want to see results clearly. So, are you willing to do this with me provided we're both still bouncing around the same circles a year, two years, and four years from now?

GreNME
11-16-2008, 01:58 AM
If you're going to start copying full texts both without attribution and without permission I'm going to have to close this thread. If you two really want to have a more focused discussion on those topics, though (could be interesting), I can facilitate by moving the posts to their own thread. (ETA: update, new thread (http://www.grenme.com/forums/showthread.php?t=943))

But just so you know, HH: the anti-Fed stuff is the 18th-century retro stuff, and the "hands-off" policy toward foreign relations is unrealistic. The accusations you're taking umbrage at aren't mutually exclusive, whether you disagree with them or not.

So, since this is yet another thread that's turned into a "why Ron Paul will/won't save America and the World" discussion, shall this get its own thread?

ExitthePig
11-16-2008, 01:55 PM
Oh, and one more thing.

He does/did smoke:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/06/obama-admits-sm.html

I love the commentary at the end of the blog....some people just NEED something to bitch about.

HereticHulk
11-16-2008, 04:53 PM
Oh, and one more thing.

He does/did smoke:
http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalradar/2008/06/obama-admits-sm.html

I love the commentary at the end of the blog....some people just NEED something to bitch about.

Oh, cigarettes. That is about as relevant as RP going on AJ. I thought you were referring to left hand smoking.

ExitthePig
11-16-2008, 05:29 PM
Oh, cigarettes. That is about as relevant as RP going on AJ. I thought you were referring to left hand smoking.

Dude, did you not read my post? Fluff...I prefaced the statement with that word so that you would know I wasn't trying to take this too seriously.

C'mon Banner!

GreNME
11-17-2008, 12:24 AM
Sorry, guys, I had to move a few posts. I suggested a change of discussion location, and then realized it kind of lost its context when EthePig created the new thread. Hopefully it doesn't bug any of you (ExitthePig, HereticHulk, or dodeca). I originally made this thread because I wanted to share a speech I thought was amazing, and while I think the tangent that developed has plenty of right to take place I thought it best to take place on its own merit.

Cool?

ExitthePig
11-17-2008, 05:20 PM
Cool?

Like Miles Davis.