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View Full Version : Economic Bail-Out Plan: Just Say NO


GreNME
09-24-2008, 10:45 PM
If you haven't heard about the current economic crisis and the proposed bail-out by the White House, then you've been avoiding pretty much any news source to miss it. It's being discussed pretty much everywhere. After sitting on commentary on the subject for a while, now I'm going to discuss it.

The nation's economy has been for a while now sinking into a crisis, based most specifically on the credit market for housing and development. This means home mortgages, to be sure, but it also means development loans taken by companies for new buildings, housing development projects, commercial projects, and so on. These things became a problem because the market has, for the last decade and a half, grown immensely and the prices of real estate and homes have grown along with it. Because of this growth, these loans were packaged together into securities and bought or sold on the market for their intrinsic value, each time they were sold making profits for the seller with the same (or similar) expectation of increased value to the buyer. As the value of these mortgages grew and their worth as a commodity grew along with it, they became a popular investment on Wall Street for large companies looking to increase profits quickly on a quickly growing bubble. Some of these packages were repackaged and sold into larger or more specialized securities, further distilling the level of debt into a more concentrated part of the economy. As long as the real estate-- and keep in mind that it's the real estate, not just homes you and I live in-- market continued to grow, these securities were practically a money tree ripe for the plucking.

Over the last couple of years, this money tree started to look a lot more like a house of cards, and the companies holding them began trying to break them apart and spread them back around in the market, the way things used to be. You see, when these sort of things are spread throughout the market in small concentrations, the risk of them failing is significantly lower than it is when they're concentrated in one place (or, in this case, a few key places). Our economic system is built in such a way to handle crises, because things that experience crises normally tend to be spread out and not taking up a huge part of the economy. Think of it like a shield that has multiple layers to keep anything dangerous from breaking all the way through, even if one of those layers falls apart or breaks. In this case, the concentration of these mortgage-backed securities was like moving all of the layers so close together that one layer breaking could risk a cascading effect and break the other layers. Some companies began to notice this and started to take steps to change that.

The problem, to put it simply, is that they failed. They did it too late.

The market was so good for those making money from these securities that they were slow to move things because they wanted to make more money. Who doesn't want to make more money? Even when the market began to decline, the value of these securities was still very high for a good, long time and the companies holding the securities wanted to move them around in ways that would remain profitable. The danger is this was that things stayed too concentrated, the people running these companies holding the securities weren't admitting that there was a decline taking place, while at the same time politicians and some media commentators decided that the problem wasn't so bad. After all, how bad could it get, right? A few people were defaulting on loans but more people were still paying on those mortgages, and even though the values were rising slower they were still rising. For things to get into a dangerous area, the country would have to go into a recession where consumer spending dropped significantly and stayed that way for an extended period of time.

Almost like a bad fiction, that's exactly what happened.

Oil prices were rising. Between speculation and supply questions, oil companies were forced to pay more for their oil and that trickled down into the fuel market. Since pretty much everyone is dependent on oil for fuel, whether in their cars or for electricity or other things, this meant everyone from the richest to the poorest were paying a whole lot more for their fuel. People began driving less and, as a consequence, began buying less. With so many people spending so much less money, under normal circumstances this would be a minor downturn in the economy where markets adjust, supplies (like oil) shift, and people come up with easier or other ways to spend their money. Under normal circumstances, money still finds a way to flow from one place to another, from one set of hands to another, because people are still working and making more money and consuming things (like food, fuel, bills and luxuries).

Unfortunately for the economy, these weren't normal circumstances.

Because the mortgage-backed securities were making less money and beginning to lose value, the lending companies who make loans should have taken that as a hint and slowed down on making loans, but they didn't. Well, not right away they didn't. Before lenders slowed down on making loans, the government decided to give them breaks on interest rates for the loans they were taking out in order to give us (regular people) loans. You might have heard about the "rate cuts" that the Federal Reserve was giving out early in the year. That's what those rate cuts were-- lower interest rates for lenders (like banks) to take loans from the Federal Reserve in order to loan you (the regular people and developers) money for buying things like houses and cars (and stores and parking lots and apartment buildings and so on). The thinking from the government was that as long as the banks and other lenders continued to make loans that the values of these mortgage-backed securities would eventually start going up again because people wanted to buy things like houses and cars and stuff.

The mistake here was that people were buying less stuff, so fewer people were buying homes and fewer developers were moving forward with plans to build more commercial projects. There were still people doing it, and enough people were doing it that a lot of money was still flowing, but it wasn't anywhere near the amount that would cause those securities to continue growing. The price of oil just contributed to that problem, eventually making even fewer people and developers buy stuff taken from loans, meaning even less money flowing. This started a snowball effect in the economy, and now those mortgage-backed securities were beginning to lose value in startling numbers. All of those companies who held them-- some of their names have been in the news lately-- began feeling the pain of holding on to them and not spreading them out more earlier like they should have. Bear Sterns, an investment banking company, was one of the first to feel the real damage that this would cause, though it wasn't the first company to report losses. However, instead of Bear Sterns having to deal with the consequences of the snowball of continually dropping value of their investments, the government decided to step in and intervene on behalf of the investment company. The reason the government gave for intervening was to help keep the economy from collapsing, just like their reasoning for lowering the interest rates to lenders in the months prior. This government intervention was considered an extreme-case scenario by the government and not something that would have a lasting impact on the economy. What was not made clear to the public (though it was mention in passing in the news) was that the government gave Bear Sterns $29 billion in a loan to save it.

To make matters worse, some in our government were still making public statements that the economy was fine and was, as President Bush put it, "fundamentally sound." However, only months after having to bail our Bear Sterns, the government had to step in to the tune of $300 billion dollars to save the mortgage corporations Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. Not long after that, the snowball continued building when Lehman Brothers filed for Chapter 11 (bankruptcy), Merrill Lynch sold itself to Bank of America, and the insurance company AIG was given a government loan of $85 billion. All of the things mentioned above were coming to a head and major financial institutions in the US were showing signs of heavy damage.

The White House, even though the government had already put forth nearly half a trillion dollars into this crisis, has recently made a proposal to spend another $700 billion to try to buy up all of these mortgage-backed securities. What the thinking behind this move is, in simple terms, is to basically buy these securities while they are low in value with the expectation that they will then go up in value later. The idea is that with the government holding these securities, they will remain safe and not in the hands of a company that might collapse, and may very well wind up making a profit in return later on.

Let me be as clear as I can possibly be on this subject: THIS IS A BAD IDEA AND A GAMBLE AT THE TAXPAYER'S EXPENSE.

I don't think I could properly exhibit how stupid an idea I think this is. More than $400 billion has already been put into this problem to try to fix it, and now the White House wants the public, the American taxpayers who put these people into office, to go another $700 billion in debt with the hope that these securities don't lose any more money, which will wind up costing us even more in the future. It's a plan full of "ifs" and "maybes" that the White House wants Congress to sign as quickly as possible because after more than a year of denying that there's a problem there is all of the sudden a sense of urgency. Even more galling is the fact that even more money will have to be spent to pay the very people from Wall Street who contributed to this problem so that they can manage these securities for the government, because there currently exists no organization in our government to handle this sort of investment already. This means that the people from Wall Street who were part of the contribution to the problem and who took so long in recognizing that there was a problem (and who failed at acting in time) will be hired on by our government at the taxpayer's expense to manage the investment that they failed to manage properly in the first place.

So, along with asking us to throw money at the problem, the White House is also asking us to pay the people who let this become a problem manage it. This is an extremely insane proposition, and what's worse is that Congress is considering it. Sure, Congress is mentioning things like "salary caps" that will be toothless regulations with loopholes that will be found, but the reality is that the people you and I have elected into office are seriously thinking of paying the people who let this become a problem to manage the problem we're going to be heading close to a trillion dollars in debt over. This idea doesn't only sound bad, it sounds dangerous and not at all thought out as far as the ramifications are concerned. President Bush, in his televised address, claims they are addressing the "root cause" for the economic problem, but this proposal does nothing of the sort. In fact, this proposal rewards those involved in the root of the problem by buying the problem from them and paying them to manage it, hoping for the best later on down the line. There's no guarantee that the underlying economic problems will go away and there is absolutely nothing other than some faint hope that this will avoid a recession. Either way, the ramifications are going to cost the American people for years to come, because this type of investment is going to require being held onto for several years before there's any hope of selling it, and even then there's no guarantee that selling it will have this country break even, let alone make any profit. Just based on a guess, adding in the costs of having Wall Street contractors come in and manage this investment, the government will have to sell these securities for a total of around a trillion dollars (possibly more) just to break even. Even in the best-case scenario, where somehow this does wind up having a profit, who gets those profits? If the taxpayers are the ones who are going to foot the bill on this, shouldn't the taxpayers be the ones who get paid as a result? That's how it works in the business world, but so far there's no such explanation from the White House how this is going to pay out to the taxpayers like you and me, and there sure as hell aren't any guarantees to be given because it's spending money we don't yet have for a profit we may not ever see.

This is the time, more than any other that you and I may see in history, to write your Senators and Representatives, and demand that they act responsibly and with accountability to the people who put them into office, and say NO to this proposal. To contact your Senator, follow this link (http://www.senate.gov/general/contact_information/senators_cfm.cfm) to find the ones who represent you in the list. To contact your representative, follow this link (https://forms.house.gov/wyr/welcome.shtml) to find the ones who represent you in the list. Let them know that you want them to say NO to this proposal, and that any other response from them will mean they are voted out of office. These people are in office to serve you, not Wall Street or financial executives who have already made a mess of things. Not all banks and lenders are going to collapse from this, and it's best to let the ones who have failed learn their lesson and the ones who don't fail to become the banking leaders in this country. We don't want an economy where mistakes are rewarded or our economy isn't going to last much longer. Personally, I like my current lifestyle and the threat of a recession doesn't scare me-- I have enough to last me through a recession and I'm confident we can bounce back. What I don't like is the idea that I and the generations to follow me are going to be footing the bill for an investment by the government that makes little or no difference and very likely will not stop a recession from happening anyway (because, let's be honest, we're likely in one already).

Whether you're Democrat or Republican, conservative or liberal, and anything in-between, we all have bills to pay and we want to have a degree of certainty and self-determination for our quality of life. If we let our government make this bad investment on our dime then we're essentially forfeiting our certainty for a crap-shoot made at the expense of not only you and me, but your children and possibly their children.

Zalmoxis
09-25-2008, 02:16 PM
Thanks for this. I'm finding this all incredibly surreal. Especially after reading Ron Suskind's op-ed (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/opinion/25suskind.html?ex=1380081600&en=46cb2824cd0c7f08&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink) that details how executives and politicians shrugged off the lessons of Enron.

The meat of it:

Speaking with a hard-edged frankness rarely heard in public — and seeing that those assembled were not sharing his outrage — Mr. Greenspan slapped the table. “There’s been too much gaming of the system,” he thundered. “Capitalism is not working! There’s been a corrupting of the system of capitalism.”

Mr. O’Neill, for his part, pushed to alter the threshold for action against chief executives from “recklessness” — where a difficult finding of willful malfeasance would be necessary for action against a corporate chief — to negligence. That is, if a company went south, the boss could face a hard-eyed appraisal from government auditors and be subject to heavy fines and other penalties. By matching upside rewards with downside consequences — a bracing idea for the corner office — Messrs. O’Neill and Greenspan hoped fear would compel the titans of business to enforce financial discipline, full public disclosure and probity down the corporate ranks.

But they were in the minority. Mr. Pitt, the S.E.C. chairman, voiced concern that creation of a new entity to assess negligence by corporate honchos might draw power away from his agency. Lawrence Lindsey said, “There’s always the option of doing nothing,” that the markets are “already discounting the stocks in companies that show accounting irregularities.”

An article about the meeting appeared a few days later in The Wall Street Journal. The next day, Mr. O’Neill was in Florida addressing chief executives of America’s top 20 financial services companies. They piled on. One told the Treasury secretary that he’d “rather resign” than be held accountable for “what’s going on in my company.” A phalanx of outraged financial industry chiefs, many of them large Republican contributors, called the White House. Real reform was a political dead letter.


And so that makes this:

So, along with asking us to throw money at the problem, the White House is also asking us to pay the people who let this become a problem manage it.

All the more irritating.

Starla*
09-26-2008, 08:21 AM
This doesn't quite have to do with the economic issues, but it is related to by McCain's campaign.

I work for a TV station in Philadelphia assigning commercials. At 445pm on Wednesday, I recieved an email from RNC's advertising to suspend all of McCain's campaign spots as of 5pm. That same day, McCain cancelled his appearance on Letterman, telling him he was on his way to Washington to deal with the economy. Letterman cut away to simultaneous footage of McCain in another CBS studio getting makeup for an interview with Katie Couric. Yeah--on the way to the airport for sure. Letterman began to question why McCain suspended his campaign--why not have Palin in his place. "Something stinks about this," he said.

And I just realized this morning what it was--since McCain supposedly in NOT campaigning, he (and Broadcast stations and newspapers) doesn't have to worry about equal coverage. He can show up on any television program or be interviewed by any newspaper for any amount of time and any amount of coverage, and those covering don't have to worry about giving Obama equal time because, essentially, John McCain is not campaigning. But he is! In showing up on all these programs to talk about the economic crisis, he is campaigning! And for free at that! Plus, in avoiding the VP debates since they aren't campaigning, he doesn't have to worry about his pit bull getting her ass kicked by Joe Biden. It's win-win for the Republicans!

HereticHulk
09-26-2008, 07:41 PM
0vcc59kf2IU

http://www.lewrockwell.com/paul/paul128.html

Dear Friends:

The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.

We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.

Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.

Still, at least a few observations are necessary.

The president assures us that his administration "is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets." Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?

We are told that "low interest rates" led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.

Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or "wildcat capitalism" (as if we actually have a pure free market!).

Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: "Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk."

Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the "many" who "believed they were guaranteed by the federal government" were in fact correct?

Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary "the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet." Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.

It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.

The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.

F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:

Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.

To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.

The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.

The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question?

Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a "rescue plan"? I guess "bailout" wasn't sitting too well with the American people.

The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.

I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.

H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.

In liberty,

Ron Paul

GreNME
09-29-2008, 08:06 AM
HH, what do you think of the situation? Yes, I'm aware of Paul's schadenfreude take on the economy when things aren't good-- he and those like him did the same thing in the late 1980's and early 1990's-- but he offers no real answers beyond "things wouldn't be bad this way if the world worked like I want it to." That's not offering an answer, that's claiming that pure capitalism, and thus this fictional creature called "the Market," is going to fix everything and make it all right. That, along with his "Austrian School" comments, basically is a collection of pure nonsense.

I'm not going to debate Ron Paul here, because Ron Paul isn't posting here. If you'd like to comment on what salient points within his statements are pertinent to the problem at hand and why you think such points are relevant, I'm happy to respond. I'm not really interested in Ron Paul grandstanding, though, and I definitely don't take seriously claims that someone, somewhere said that something is going to eventually go wrong as proof of anything other than some witch-doctor or island shaman predicting that someone, somewhere is going to probably get hurt and maybe die at some point in the future.

HereticHulk
09-29-2008, 09:24 PM
It doesn't really matter what I think. Nobody knows for sure if a bailout would have work or not. I know that pointing fingers now is pointless. But I tend to think that tacking on (at minimum) $700 Billion to the national debt and sliding this onto the tax payers would be the crime of the century. I am of the opinion (like Ron Paul) that any bailout is only going to prolong the inevitable total collapse of a flawed monetary policy.

Grenme, you need to give Ron Paul his due and proper. You seem to write him off and marginalize him too easy. His economic predictions have been pretty detailed and very consistent. Your above summary of those is pretty off the mark. He was talking about this long before most folks. He was trying to warn his colleagues and the American public and was mocked and ridiculed for it. He does offer real answers (http://www.idahoansforhollingsworth.com/forbes03042008.html), you just obviously haven't looked. RP and 'others like him' talking about this in the late 80's early 90's only goes to show that he (and they) were right.

This also would be a good start: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2755

That being said, I am definitely no economist and this is a very complicated matter. One of the more honest, non-partisan assessments I've read was here (http://techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0426042403.shtml).

GreNME
09-30-2008, 08:50 AM
It doesn't really matter what I think.

No, it's absolutely important what you think, because it's people like yourself (and myself) who are supposed to be the ones Congress is acting on behalf of in the first place. This is why I placed those two links for finding and contacting your Senator and House member-- let them know what you think and tell them you expect their behavior to reflect their constituency. Tell them that if their behavior doesn't reflect their constituency then they better not expect to be in office after their next election cycle.

Nobody knows for sure if a bailout would have work or not. I know that pointing fingers now is pointless. But I tend to think that tacking on (at minimum) $700 Billion to the national debt and sliding this onto the tax payers would be the crime of the century. I am of the opinion (like Ron Paul) that any bailout is only going to prolong the inevitable total collapse of a flawed monetary policy.

You're going to need to define "total collapse" and "flawed monetary policy" in this case, otherwise I'm going to have to assume that you, like Paul, honestly have no idea what you're talking about.

Grenme, you need to give Ron Paul his due and proper. You seem to write him off and marginalize him too easy. His economic predictions have been pretty detailed and very consistent. Your above summary of those is pretty off the mark. He was talking about this long before most folks. He was trying to warn his colleagues and the American public and was mocked and ridiculed for it. He does offer real answers (http://www.idahoansforhollingsworth.com/forbes03042008.html), you just obviously haven't looked. RP and 'others like him' talking about this in the late 80's early 90's only goes to show that he (and they) were right.

You're assuming a whole lot about what I've considered and what I haven't. I said I wasn't going to debate Ron Paul because Ron Paul isn't posting here. I've read his commentary on economics and the US economic and Reserve environments, and he continually comes across as incredibly ignorant, almost to the point of being wantonly so. He keeps mentioning his "Austrian School" of economics, but he never mentions that the "Austrian School" as he likes to call it lacks any mathematical sense and relies more on touchy-feely emotions about the direction of markets and the economy as a whole than our current system. In a number of interviews on the subject he talks about backing money with assets as if that isn't what the government already does-- he just doesn't like the assets being used and he's offered no good explanation outside of arbitrary accusations to justify it.

As for saying that this current situation proves he or any others were right seems to be ignoring the fact that they (in general) claimed the same such omniscience back in 1987 when the market crashed and they predicted the looming collapse of the US money system back in 1991-92 when there was a recession-- both times they were wrong and the economy recovered stronger than before. Back in 1981 when there were problems in the oil market-- same thing. Back in the embargoes of the 1970's-- same thing. This is a cyclical pattern than, as far as economics goes, should be expected by those in the markets as well as by the consumers. This is especially so when it comes to market bubbles, of which this (housing) credit bubble was practically a textbook example.

This also would be a good start: http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-2755

Dude, if you want to start this discussion I would ask you to please take it to another thread. I know that bill may sound to you like it's relevant to the current situation but it honestly and truly is not. Suffice to say my main summary as to why it's not relevant is that it's an order of magnitude beyond throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

That being said, I am definitely no economist and this is a very complicated matter. One of the more honest, non-partisan assessments I've read was here (http://techdirt.com/articles/20080929/0426042403.shtml).

You think my assessment is partisan? :p

No, that's a very good link-- as long as you stop to read all of the links (especially the NPR ones) within the blog post. It goes into far more detail than I did and provides more of an assessment of alternatives than I did. I mostly agree with the article's more vague assessments, though I can't commit to agreeing with everything mentioned without checking it out more. The writer seems to conclude something pretty close to what I do: think twice before trying to spend a whole lot of cash that may very well barely touch the tip of the iceberg, and the chances are pretty good that while the coming 6-12 months of economic hardship are going to hurt pretty badly, when we come out of the mess the companies that are still around will be stronger and better equipped in the future. It's a bit like economic Darwinism, I know, but in terms of numbers and comparing the current crisis to the one in the late 1980's (that we came out of to achieve a surplus), the chances seem better for not rushing to spend the money right now at taxpayer expense.

HereticHulk
10-03-2008, 02:18 PM
Well it's all over but the crying now.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/03/news/economy/house_friday_bailout/index.htm?postversion=2008100309

We were just voted and signed into a 3rd world country.

Democracy is dead. :(

GreNME
10-05-2008, 05:51 PM
If you treat every crisis like the end of the world, eventually you're going to get so discouraged that you'll wind up hurting someone, most likely yourself.

HereticHulk
10-05-2008, 10:53 PM
If you treat every crisis like the end of the world, eventually you're going to get so discouraged that you'll wind up hurting someone, most likely yourself.

Are you implying I would commit a violent act against someone or myself?

Dude, I am not that type of person.

From what I've read re: this financial crisis, things are going to get pretty ugly in the next couple months here.

This week will be interesting to see how the stock market reacts.

GreNME
10-06-2008, 04:50 AM
I didn't mean to imply you were that type of person. However, when one sees everything as a series of extremes, their behavior begins to match that pattern. The most likely way I would guess you could wind up hurting yourself is financially-- these are precisely the times when hucksters like to swoop in and take advantage of economic panic. I've seen them in television commercials on cable (pay) TV on a regular basis this entire year: people claiming to be able to put your money into gold, to buy your gold from you (at "top dollar" prices), or even those stooges who claim to know all the "secret" money you can get from the government. I expect more in the near future, and I expect the scams to get more tied into preying on the current economic uncertainty. Take plenty of care, because if even the more benign of these scams-- the gold ones, and it only barely falls under "benign" in that it's not out to hurt you, just take advantage of your uncertainty for no economic benefit-- start sounding convincing, hang up the phone or close the website or change the channel because these people are not out to help you and could very well cause you to waste your money.

I'm sorry for seeming to imply otherwise, especially regarding physical harm. I think any physical outbursts would be more likely relegated to those who wouldn't be capable of holding a conversation in the first place, which pretty much counts you out in my opinion. That doesn't mean you don't stand to have your disappointment and disenchantment taken advantage of, though. Believe me when I say that I still don't think things are too bad-- don't get me wrong, I think the economy is going to suffer for this in the short term... maybe even for the next 12-18 months-- and even this stupidity from our elected officials just tells me that if there were a way to ensure having all of Congress voted out over the next three years I would be very interested in hearing of such a movement. This episode doesn't disenchant me (I doubt I could be much more cynical without still caring), but it does re-affirm for me that Congress, even if they have the best of intentions, aren't doing their job and deserve the electoral consequences of that failing.